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 BioFuel Shake-Up

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timmm
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TimV
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PostSubject: BioFuel Shake-Up   BioFuel Shake-Up EmptyThu Nov 03, 2011 9:40 am

I'm just reading an article in this week's Auto Express. According to the report the Government are planning to increase the content of biofuel in regular unleaded. Apparently regular unleaded currently contains up to 5% ethanol but this is likely to go up to 10% in the new E10 version potentially to be introduced next year. The report says this will not be suitable for most pre-1993 cars. Direct injection and carburettor vehicles will have to use Super Unleaded.

I suspect that AquaBays will have no problem with this new grade of unleaded but Aircooled drivers like myself will probably have to go for the more expensive Super Unleaded. Drivers of Classic Bays undoubtedly will. Evil or Very Mad

www.autoexpress.co.uk

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PostSubject: Re: BioFuel Shake-Up   BioFuel Shake-Up EmptyThu Nov 03, 2011 9:43 am

So AquaBays cheaper to run and more miles per gal? (head down quick!) Get your order in now Very Happy Lets also hope more E85 becomes available over the next few years to cut costs even further...
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TimV
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PostSubject: Re: BioFuel Shake-Up   BioFuel Shake-Up EmptyThu Nov 03, 2011 9:55 am

Jason can you check with VW and confirm that the 1.4 will take this 10% increase without issue? I imagine the answer will be a resounding YES from them.

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PostSubject: Re: BioFuel Shake-Up   BioFuel Shake-Up EmptyThu Nov 03, 2011 10:08 am

Jason also...
It would be of interest to know what proportion of ethanol will eventually trigger the need to start the engine from petrol in the small tank.
I'm sure 10% won't make any difference, but 20%, 30%, 40% ..... ?
This might be a question, say, if bio-ethanol is added to a tank still half full of petrol. There must be some definitive level of ethanol that causes a switch to the small tank
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PostSubject: Re: BioFuel Shake-Up   BioFuel Shake-Up EmptyThu Nov 03, 2011 10:10 am

TimV wrote:
Jason can you check with VW and confirm that the 1.4 will take this 10% increase without issue? I imagine the answer will be a resounding YES from them.

The aquabays will take that no problem, they will be able to take up to 85% ethanol.

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PostSubject: Re: BioFuel Shake-Up   BioFuel Shake-Up EmptyThu Nov 03, 2011 10:20 am

Thanks ManoKite - there you go then folks. Yet another reason to go AquaBay.

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PostSubject: Re: BioFuel Shake-Up   BioFuel Shake-Up EmptySat Nov 05, 2011 10:04 pm

TimV wrote:
Direct injection and carburettor vehicles will have to use Super Unleaded.

I'm sure that in the sales literature from Danbury which came with our (aqua) bay, it says that you SHOULDN'T put super unleaded in it. We've never bothered experimenting - the super stuff is too expensive at the best of times.

Have fun,

CHRIS
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TimV
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PostSubject: Re: BioFuel Shake-Up   BioFuel Shake-Up EmptySat Nov 05, 2011 10:24 pm

To clarify: only Aircooled (Fuel Injected) Kombis and Classic Bays will be affected by this. AquaBays will be fine to use the new E10 regular unleaded - as kiteman suggests, they can take a mix of up to 85% ethanol.

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Tallulah

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PostSubject: Re: BioFuel Shake-Up   BioFuel Shake-Up EmptySat Nov 05, 2011 10:28 pm

As far as I know the aqua bays will be fine with 100% ethanol providing there is some stronger juice is the small tank, and E85 (85% ethanol) even if there's not.

The 15% petrol in E85 is there purely to ensure bio-fuel engines without a second tank continue to start in colder climates like Europe and North America.

Reference:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flexible-fuel_vehicle

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PostSubject: Re: BioFuel Shake-Up   BioFuel Shake-Up EmptySun Nov 06, 2011 9:05 am

Tallulah - Thanks for that Wikipedia reference - very interesting and informative.
But I would still like to know under what conditions (% of ethanol, temperature) it becomes essential to have petrol in the small tank. Can anyone say?
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PostSubject: Re: BioFuel Shake-Up   BioFuel Shake-Up EmptySun Nov 06, 2011 11:22 am

Thanks Tilly
This is what I found there to answer my questions
"E100 imposes a limitation on normal vehicle operation as ethanol's lower evaporative pressure (as compared to gasoline) causes problems when cold starting the engine at temperatures below 15 °C (59 °F).[116] For this reason both pure ethanol and E100 flexible-fuel vehicles are built with an additional small gasoline reservoir inside the engine compartment to help in starting the engine when cold by initially injecting gasoline. Once started, the engine is then switched back to ethanol.[116] An improved flex engine generation was developed to eliminate the need for the secondary gas tank by warming the ethanol fuel during starting,[117][118] and allowing flex vehicles to do a normal cold start at temperatures as low as −5 °C (23 °F),[119] the lowest temperature expected anywhere in the Brazilian territory.[120] The Polo E-Flex, launched in March 2009, was the first flex fuel model without an auxiliary tank for cold start. The warming system is called Flex Start and was developed by Robert Bosch GmbH.[121][122]"
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PostSubject: Re: BioFuel Shake-Up   BioFuel Shake-Up EmptySun Nov 06, 2011 11:24 am

You see - once again Brazilian VW Bay.com is both educational and entertaining! cheers

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PostSubject: Re: BioFuel Shake-Up   BioFuel Shake-Up EmptySun Nov 06, 2011 11:35 am

Quote :
When the vapor pressure in the ethanol blend drops below 45 kPa fuel ignition cannot be guaranteed on cold winter days, limiting the maximum ethanol blend percentage during the winter months to E75.

So (reading between the lines) E85 is good down to 11-15c after which the 2nd tank will be used for starting.

What we don't know is what sensors the engine uses to determine when to use it, temp? Vapour pressure? Concentration in tank?

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PostSubject: Re: BioFuel Shake-Up   BioFuel Shake-Up EmptySun Nov 06, 2011 2:25 pm

If you need the small tank for anything below 15 degrees, that's pretty much all year then. Smile

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PostSubject: Re: BioFuel Shake-Up   BioFuel Shake-Up EmptySun Nov 06, 2011 6:56 pm

Tilly, I agree in principal however there was a whole discussion on here about that already (different thread) and it turns out there are very few - if any? - aqua bay owners who have ever needed to refil their 'starter' tanks, and no evidence that the amount in the tank has reduced by anything other than evaporation.

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PostSubject: Re: BioFuel Shake-Up   BioFuel Shake-Up EmptyMon Oct 20, 2014 12:20 pm

Reading through his topic,
just a few questions.

1/ As the small tank is for bio fuel, and If it always starts on the small tank then switches to the main tank once started, what would happen when the small tank becomes empty?

2/ As i don't have access to bio fuel, does that mean that if there is bio fuel still in the small tank that i will have to re-fill it if and when it is depleted?

3/ what would happen if petrol was put into the small tank instead of bio?

4/ what is the capacity of the small tank?



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PostSubject: Re: BioFuel Shake-Up   BioFuel Shake-Up EmptyMon Oct 20, 2014 12:30 pm

The small tank is for petrol not Bio, Bio fuel goes in the large tank.
Pertol has a higher octane rating so is need to start the engine, once it's running it then switches over to bio fuel in the main tank.

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PostSubject: Re: BioFuel Shake-Up   BioFuel Shake-Up EmptyMon Oct 20, 2014 12:36 pm

Am lost altogether now.
My technical knowledge as you might have realised by now is nil.

So,how then reversing the questions as my last post?

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PostSubject: Re: BioFuel Shake-Up   BioFuel Shake-Up EmptyMon Oct 20, 2014 12:38 pm

Quote :
1/ As the small tank is for bio fuel, and If it always starts on the small tank then switches to the main tank once started, what would happen when the small tank becomes empty?

It's the other way round, the small tank is ONLY for regular unleaded petrol and (although no-one has any way to prove this) we suspect the small tank would only be used if the ECU determines a problem when starting as normal from the main tank when filled with bio-ethanol AND the outside temperature is below 15 degrees (ish). When the small tank does become empty/low - mainly due to evaporation it would seem - there should be a dash warning light that comes on.

Quote :
2/ As i don't have access to bio fuel, does that mean that if there is bio fuel still in the small tank that i will have to re-fill it if and when it is depleted?

Under normal (UK) use where the main tank contains regular unleaded, your van should happily run with nothing in the small tank although the dash warning light will be on. However most owners do keep the small tank topped up. AFAIK bio-ethanol is no longer available in the UK. We did however fill our main tank with E85 a couple of times while in France, 85% bio-ethanol and almost 1/2 the cost of unleaded. Tallulah ran like a dream although it wasn't cold enough to concern the engine into starting on the small tank.

Quote :
3/ what would happen if petrol was put into the small tank instead of bio?

See first answer above.

Quote :
4/ what is the capacity of the small tank?

Between 1 and 2 litres with a very short neck. It is advisable to fill using a petrol can rather than at the pump due to the risk of spillage etc.

Hope that helps.


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PostSubject: Re: BioFuel Shake-Up   BioFuel Shake-Up EmptyMon Oct 20, 2014 12:41 pm

thank you.

so... basically i am ok to fill both the tanks safely with petrol?

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PostSubject: Re: BioFuel Shake-Up   BioFuel Shake-Up EmptyMon Oct 20, 2014 12:52 pm

timmm wrote:
thank you.

so... basically i am ok to fill both the tanks safely with petrol?

Absolutely. Just be care full with the small one especially if filling at the pump.

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PostSubject: Re: BioFuel Shake-Up   BioFuel Shake-Up EmptyMon Oct 20, 2014 1:06 pm

Thanks....think mine was empty but it didn't have the warning light on the dash at all, but at the first time i went to fill my bus up, i started putting it in the wrong tank before i realised my mistake.

I only put a couple of squirts in, and then siphoned it out whereby lots of brown gooey stuff came out as well.... hence me thinking that was the boi tank.

And since then, my dash warning light for that tank has been on.

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PostSubject: Re: BioFuel Shake-Up   BioFuel Shake-Up EmptyWed Oct 22, 2014 4:37 pm

alkylate petrol

Timmm mentions 'brown gooey stuff' from his small tank.
This was also what emerged from our small tank when it was emptied to re-fill it with the more stable alkylate petrol.
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PostSubject: Re: BioFuel Shake-Up   BioFuel Shake-Up EmptyWed Oct 22, 2014 11:15 pm

What's your thoughts on it. ..

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PostSubject: Re: BioFuel Shake-Up   BioFuel Shake-Up EmptyThu Oct 23, 2014 2:37 pm

The liquid syphoned from our small tank ( in 2012 ) was brown in colour but not really 'gooey' - more like petrol with a distinct brown hue. We assumed that this had been added at production time in Brazil and so must represent the regular fuel used there.
No signs of rust, so not brown because of that.
Haven't looked since then but I'll check what tank holds now.
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