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 The government is set to introduce E10 fuel

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harryhornet

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PostSubject: The government is set to introduce E10 fuel   The government is set to introduce E10 fuel EmptyWed Mar 04, 2020 8:11 pm

The government is set to introduce E10 fuel containing 10% ethanol as a new form of cleaner petrol aimed at cutting carbon dioxide emissions.
I’m wondering if this will effect Aircooled engines.
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Dee James

Dee James

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PostSubject: Re: The government is set to introduce E10 fuel   The government is set to introduce E10 fuel EmptyThu Mar 05, 2020 11:44 am

@harryhornet wrote:
The government is set to introduce E10 fuel containing 10% ethanol as a new form of cleaner petrol aimed at cutting carbon dioxide emissions.
I’m wondering if this will effect Aircooled engines.

I was thinking the same and found this online

https://blog.heritagepartscentre.com/blog/2014/05/15/e10-fuelling-speculation/
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harryhornet

harryhornet

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PostSubject: Re: The government is set to introduce E10 fuel   The government is set to introduce E10 fuel EmptyThu Mar 05, 2020 1:29 pm

OK, so it's likely to cause some issues particularly during a Winter lay up period but with careful management the problems should be contained.
This advice seems sensible -

As far as vehicle layup is concerned, the fuel companies suggest doing so with ‘Winter’ fuel (as supplied from mid-October to mid-April) which should go off slower in storage. Also lay your classic up with a virtually full tank of fuel to reduce the volume of moist air and minimise the exposed area of metal inside the top of the fuel.
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Dee James

Dee James

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PostSubject: Re: The government is set to introduce E10 fuel   The government is set to introduce E10 fuel EmptyThu Mar 05, 2020 2:14 pm

@harryhornet wrote:
OK, so it's likely to cause some issues particularly during a Winter lay up period but with careful management the problems should be contained.
This advice seems sensible -

As far as vehicle layup is concerned, the fuel companies suggest doing so with ‘Winter’ fuel (as supplied from mid-October to mid-April) which should go off slower in storage. Also lay your classic up with a virtually full tank of fuel to reduce the volume of moist air and minimise the exposed area of metal inside the top of the fuel.

i had no idea there was such a thing as winter fuel until i read that . . .
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Purple

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PostSubject: Re: The government is set to introduce E10 fuel   The government is set to introduce E10 fuel EmptyThu Mar 05, 2020 3:55 pm

@harryhornet wrote:


As far as vehicle layup is concerned, the fuel companies suggest doing so with ‘Winter’ fuel (as supplied from mid-October to mid-April) which should go off slower in storage. Also lay your classic up with a virtually full tank of fuel to reduce the volume of moist air and minimise the exposed area of metal inside the top of the fuel.

Whoever would have thought - a fuel company recommending we fill our vans full of fuel....!
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Purple

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PostSubject: Re: The government is set to introduce E10 fuel   The government is set to introduce E10 fuel EmptyThu Mar 05, 2020 3:58 pm

@Dee James wrote:
@harryhornet wrote:
The government is set to introduce E10 fuel containing 10% ethanol as a new form of cleaner petrol aimed at cutting carbon dioxide emissions.
I’m wondering if this will effect Aircooled engines.

I was thinking the same and found this online

https://blog.heritagepartscentre.com/blog/2014/05/15/e10-fuelling-speculation/

I saw that earlier today as well, one of the few times I'm glad to have an obscure FI, ECU and lambda set up.

Do those flash stainless steel exhausts that some people have retrofitted retain the lambda sensor?
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osg

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PostSubject: Re: The government is set to introduce E10 fuel   The government is set to introduce E10 fuel EmptySun Mar 08, 2020 6:06 pm

E10 is not a new idea. Citroen cars have been OK with E10 since the year 2000
osg
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Purple

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PostSubject: Re: The government is set to introduce E10 fuel   The government is set to introduce E10 fuel EmptyMon Mar 09, 2020 11:56 am

@osg wrote:
E10 is not a new idea. Citroen cars have been OK with E10 since the year 2000
osg

I think the point is that its a new idea here? Our vans run on ethanol, but you wont it find it here in sufficient quantity or price to make it viable - its about £3 a litre !
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osg

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PostSubject: Re: The government is set to introduce E10 fuel   The government is set to introduce E10 fuel EmptyMon Mar 09, 2020 4:17 pm

There is a table in this link showing that vehicles made for the Brazilian market since 1976 should be designed to run using E10 petrol or even greater proportions of ethanol.
osg

E10 link
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Tallulah

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PostSubject: Re: The government is set to introduce E10 fuel   The government is set to introduce E10 fuel EmptyMon Mar 09, 2020 9:58 pm

Back in 2011/12 bioethanol was available on some Morrisons forecourts but they didn’t sell enough to make it viable.

Whilst travelling around France you can occasionally buy E85 which is significantly cheaper than other petrol (E5 or E10) and our aqua bays love it!

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Last edited by Tallulah on Tue Mar 10, 2020 3:50 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Purple

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PostSubject: Re: The government is set to introduce E10 fuel   The government is set to introduce E10 fuel EmptyTue Mar 10, 2020 9:12 am

@Tallulah wrote:
Back in 2011/12 bioethanol wasn’t available on some Morrisons forecourts but they didn’t sell enough to make it viable.

Whilst travelling around France you can occasionally buy E85 which is significantly cheaper than other petrol (E5 or E10) and our aqua bays love it!

Were you able to just top up with it and run with no issues whilst you were there, then revert to 95RON when you got back to the UK?
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osg

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PostSubject: Re: The government is set to introduce E10 fuel   The government is set to introduce E10 fuel EmptyTue Mar 10, 2020 10:40 am

As I understand it, yes the Total Flex 1.4 water-cooled engine can adjust itself to any proportions of petrol and ethanol that it finds in the main fuel tank.
The small fuel tank however must hold only petrol because in some circumstances the initial start-up of the engine will take supply from there.
osg
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Tallulah

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PostSubject: Re: The government is set to introduce E10 fuel   The government is set to introduce E10 fuel EmptyTue Mar 10, 2020 3:52 pm

@Purple wrote:
@Tallulah wrote:
Back in 2011/12 bioethanol wasn’t available on some Morrisons forecourts but they didn’t sell enough to make it viable.

Whilst travelling around France you can occasionally buy E85 which is significantly cheaper than other petrol (E5 or E10) and our aqua bays love it!

Were you able to just top up with it and run with no issues whilst you were there, then revert to 95RON when you got back to the UK?

Yes, as OSG says, the 1.4 Total Flex engine is designed to run any mix of petrol and bio ethanol and with E85 you get a few more horses too!


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Purple

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PostSubject: Re: The government is set to introduce E10 fuel   The government is set to introduce E10 fuel EmptyWed Mar 11, 2020 8:51 am

@Tallulah wrote:
@Purple wrote:
@Tallulah wrote:
Back in 2011/12 bioethanol wasn’t available on some Morrisons forecourts but they didn’t sell enough to make it viable.

Whilst travelling around France you can occasionally buy E85 which is significantly cheaper than other petrol (E5 or E10) and our aqua bays love it!

Were you able to just top up with it and run with no issues whilst you were there, then revert to 95RON when you got back to the UK?

Yes, as OSG says, the 1.4 Total Flex engine is designed to run any mix of petrol and bio ethanol and with E85 you get a few more horses too!


So presumably the only time the auxiliary petrol tank on the near side comes into play is when the main tank has 'other' fuel in it? How does the engine management system sense it needs to use the auxiliary tank to start the engine?
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Tallulah

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PostSubject: Re: The government is set to introduce E10 fuel   The government is set to introduce E10 fuel EmptyWed Mar 11, 2020 10:20 am

@Purple wrote:
@Tallulah wrote:
@Purple wrote:
@Tallulah wrote:
Back in 2011/12 bioethanol wasn’t available on some Morrisons forecourts but they didn’t sell enough to make it viable.

Whilst travelling around France you can occasionally buy E85 which is significantly cheaper than other petrol (E5 or E10) and our aqua bays love it!

Were you able to just top up with it and run with no issues whilst you were there, then revert to 95RON when you got back to the UK?

Yes, as OSG says, the 1.4 Total Flex engine is designed to run any mix of petrol and bio ethanol and with E85 you get a few more horses too!


So presumably the only time the auxiliary petrol tank on the near side comes into play is when the main tank has 'other' fuel in it? How does the engine management system sense it needs to use the auxiliary tank to start the engine?

From what we understand, it is a 'decision' based on the ambient temperature. Anything below 15C - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flexible-fuel_vehicles_in_Brazil

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osg

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PostSubject: Re: The government is set to introduce E10 fuel   The government is set to introduce E10 fuel EmptyWed Mar 11, 2020 11:22 am

Tallulah's link indicates that engine starting uses petrol from our small fuel tank when the temperature is below 15C.
But the engine management system must be able to recognise the mixture of fuels in the large tank so as to be able to adjust for smooth running.
As the level in our small tank reduces very gradually it may be that the check for temperature below 15C is only relevant when there is not 100% petrol in the main tank.
On the other hand, our camper is off road in Winter so may only occasionally started below 15C
Any other technical info about this?
osg
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Purple

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PostSubject: Re: The government is set to introduce E10 fuel   The government is set to introduce E10 fuel EmptyWed Mar 11, 2020 12:19 pm

@osg wrote:
Tallulah's link indicates that engine starting uses petrol from our small fuel tank when the temperature is below 15C.
But the engine management system must be able to recognise the mixture of fuels in the large tank so as to be able to adjust for smooth running.
As the level in our small tank reduces very gradually it may be that the check for temperature below  15C is only relevant when there is not 100% petrol in the main tank.
On the other hand, our camper is off road in Winter so may only occasionally started below 15C
Any other technical info about this?
osg

This is intriguing me now.

My panel van was bought new by a lift and elevator company and was used in and around London as an engineer's van throughout the year, rain or shine.  Given the condition of the auxiliary tank fuel cap and gasket I'd say its only been opened a few times in ten years - the gasket crumbled in my hand when I first opened it.
Perhaps the ECU stores the fuelling adjustments when running on E85/Bio-ethanol and then takes the starting fuel from the auxiliary tank on each cold start, until it senses that the main tank has sufficient 95RON mixture, then reverts to the main tank for cold starts thereafter? There must be an auxiliary fuel pump as well, that potentially doesn't run for years on end?

Might have to check SparkySteve's blogg.....
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Dennis



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PostSubject: Re: The government is set to introduce E10 fuel   The government is set to introduce E10 fuel EmptyWed Mar 11, 2020 8:32 pm

The ecu monitors through a sensing device the ethanol content and adjusts the mixture accordingly. There is a small pump near the aux tank.
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Purple

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PostSubject: Re: The government is set to introduce E10 fuel   The government is set to introduce E10 fuel EmptyThu Mar 12, 2020 5:55 pm

@Dennis wrote:
The ecu monitors through a sensing device the ethanol content and adjusts the mixture accordingly. There is a small pump near the aux tank.

Got it - its the lambda sensor in the exhaust line that does the sensing and adjusts the fuel mix etc.
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eamamar

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PostSubject: Re: The government is set to introduce E10 fuel   The government is set to introduce E10 fuel EmptyWed Mar 18, 2020 10:10 am

Even for the AC I think this is a non-issue.

Brazil has had an aggressive ethanol policy since the 70s Oil crisis.  I dont have more time to find the numbers - but this suggests that all gasoline already has high proportions of ethanol...

"The percentage of ethanol blended in gasoline can vary from 18 to 25 percent according to the Provisional Measure #532 of April 2011. In 2011, the ethanol blend rate was dropped from E25 to E20 due to low availability."

I reckon it's been +15% for a long time.

https://www.transportpolicy.net/standard/brazil-fuels-biofuels/
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