Red9Design front end

I know that this topic is over 10 years old but I would like to hear from members who have fitted the Red9 front end?
I bought an 86 Bay - 14 window, a few weeks back and the steering is, as many describe, like steering a boat!
I live in rural France and the winding roads make me scared when driving the old girl!
There is a local VW "expert”, he has a yard full of VW's vans, buses and campers but he has not see the Brazilian before. He is convinced that he can improve the steering by updating some of the track rods etc and maybe a new steering box - but no guarantee that it will be a lot better.

I have been in touch with Red9 and am quite convinced that it is the way to go. I am not sure if my current disk brakes will fit and am a little concerned about the brake servo and steering column, I would truly welcome feedback on the subject
Thanks

I think that you will find it difficult to get a specific answer about your 86 14 window. Our Red9 is a 2011 watercooled, and the disc brakes, brake servo and steering column weren't problems. In fact the biggest problem was Danbury's RHD conversion, which left the brake servo on the nearside and installed a connecting rod across the van to the brake pedal. We also have LiteSteer power steering. Most of the Red9 installations are on German-built classic vans, and I don't know to what extent yours might be different. It might be worth checking with Red9 who does installations in France, and taking the van in for somebody to take a look at it.

Thank you.
Mine is LHD so hopefully won’t have the brake Devi problem
I am going to see my VW man today and have gathered up a load of images from various sites.
I did see on the red9 site that they gave a French agent but looking on their site did not give me oodles of confidence.
So have you been satisfied with the installation?
Thanks

Had red9 and litesteer  fitted 5 years ago. Best thing since sliced bread. The installation was carried out by Neil at Litesteer and have had no problems at all. Tim

MikeGee wrote:

Thank you.
Mine is LHD so hopefully won’t have the brake Devi problem  
I am going to see my VW man today and have gathered up a load of images from various sites.
I did see on the red9 site that they gave a French agent but looking on their site did not give me oodles of confidence.
So have you been satisfied with the installation?
Thanks  

I think that much of the Red9 website has just been copied across from the previous owners and is out of date. I suggest to phone or email them about French installers. I had two problems with the installation. The first was that the installers (not Red9) removed the front beam and cut the end off the steering column before deciding that they had the wrong bevel box, and it was 6 weeks before we got the van back. The second problem was excessive tyre wear on the inside edges due to misalignment. That was sorted out by a visit to Red9's original owners to sort out tracking, camber and toe.

Thanks for the feedback - did you try and fit new parts to the original sytem before deciding to fit the Red9 kit? My (French) VW man seems a little dubious about changing the whole system and thinks that he can just fit new track rod ends and bushes etc and it will be better ..... We have located a new steering box bit at €500 he still won't say that it will be "perfect" with that fitted....

I don't believe you'll get perfection but for a lot less money than buying Red9 you'll at least get a Kombi that feels sharper to drive.

Can you post a pic of your '86 please?

MikeGreene wrote:

Thanks for the feedback - did you try and fit new parts to the original sytem before deciding to fit the Red9 kit? My (French) VW man seems a little dubious about changing the whole system and thinks that he can just fit new track rod ends and bushes etc and it will be better ..... We have located a new steering box bit at €500 he still won't say that it will be "perfect" with that fitted....

No, our van is a 2011 and we had Red9 installed in 2015. We had already had the steering box adjusted as far as possible without risking damage. I can't really tell you whether the problem was the Brazilian box not being the same quality as a German, whether we just had a bad one, or whether I was just expecting the precision which you will only get from rack and pinion. I talked to Neil Oakley at LiteSteer about alternative options, and he said that I might not be happy with anything less than LiteSteer. I also wanted the van to be such that any of my family could just jump in and drive it. It isn't cheap, but it's still a reasonable investment if you plan to keep the van a long time. We also have the benefit of much better front suspension, especially since you are sitting right on top of it, more so on rough country roads.

Thank you - just what I wanted hear.
How long did it take to fit - I’m thinking a couple of days at least !

Well 6 weeks in our case! Most of that it was just sitting on the ramp, I think about 2 days. Steve Johnson installed his own, and Alan Crerar has one which he will be installing himself.

About 2 weeks, but on water cooled the pipes had to be removed so replaced with stainless while off. Also refitting the anti roll bar and litesteer.

Red9 suspension is quite badly designed, as it puts all the front weight of the van onto only 2 bottom ball joints that operate in wrong direction - ie ball joint can be puled out of the suspension arm ( by lets say big pothole).
Most of the steering problems can be resolved by correctly adjusting steering box - ie giving it 90 deg preload around dead centre. Sorting pins bushes ( grease or replacement ) and correct steering geometry will make it run better than you can imagine.

brabay wrote:

Red9 suspension is quite badly designed, as it puts all the front weight of the van onto only 2 bottom ball joints that operate in wrong direction - ie ball joint can be puled out of the suspension arm ( by lets say big pothole).
Most of the steering problems can be resolved by correctly adjusting steering box - ie giving it 90 deg preload around dead centre. Sorting pins bushes ( grease or replacement ) and correct steering geometry will make it run better than you can imagine.

So have you actually heard of a Red9 suspension failing? I haven't, and I've read quite a lot about them, both before and after having ours installed. Our van was only 3 years old when we decided to replace the steering box. It had already been adjusted, and the pins and bushes were fine. To be honest I suspect that the route you suggest is likely to be more viable with a 50 year old German steering box than a 35 year old Brazilian. No harm and not much cost in trying it of course.

brabay wrote:

Red9 suspension is quite badly designed, as it puts all the front weight of the van onto only 2 bottom ball joints that operate in wrong direction - ie ball joint can be puled out of the suspension arm ( by lets say big pothole).
Most of the steering problems can be resolved by correctly adjusting steering box - ie giving it 90 deg preload around dead centre. Sorting pins bushes ( grease or replacement ) and correct steering geometry will make it run better than you can imagine.

Thanks for you reply - I am concerned that I may be about to payout a few thousand Euros for a solution to the problem of having a vehicle that steers like a boat that is "quite badly designed".
I have read many articles and comments from end users and have not, until your post, heard any negative vibes.
Can you let me know if your knowledge it is from an engineering perspective or personal experience?
Thanks again

MikeGreene wrote:

brabay wrote:

Red9 suspension is quite badly designed, as it puts all the front weight of the van onto only 2 bottom ball joints that operate in wrong direction - ie ball joint can be puled out of the suspension arm ( by lets say big pothole).
Most of the steering problems can be resolved by correctly adjusting steering box - ie giving it 90 deg preload around dead centre. Sorting pins bushes ( grease or replacement ) and correct steering geometry will make it run better than you can imagine.

Thanks for you reply - I am concerned that I may be about to payout a few thousand Euros for a solution to the problem of having a vehicle that steers like a boat that is "quite badly designed".
I have read many articles and comments from end users and have not, until your post, heard any negative vibes.
Can you let me know if your knowledge it is from an engineering perspective or personal experience?
Thanks again

There are loads of people who are happy with those setups and how they drive. I never have used one but I just don't like the non fail safe design.

What is a “non fail safe design “ ?

MikeGee wrote:

What is a “non fail safe design “ ?

it is opposite of fail safe design: Something that is fail-safe is designed or made in such a way that nothing dangerous can happen if a part of it goes wrong.




if you have a look at vw t25 suspension that is a good exmple of fail safe design the balljoint is in the spindle and operates in correct way.

I guess they had many enquiries about that over the years, you could ask them as see what they say.

Ok so what are the consequences of using a “non fail system” ?
Could there be a problem by just driving or is it an issue if involved in an accident?

Surely there is a non fail safe with tyres but we still use them.

MikeGee wrote:

Ok so what are the consequences of using a “non fail system” ?
Could there be a problem by just driving or is it an issue if involved in an accident?

There are some Toyota models that use similar  non fail safe design and youtube is full of videos of them failing listen to the stories, might help you decide.

No different to  morris 1000's  and Austin A40 s that had gone down on their knees broke down  on many junctions in the valleys.

sounds a bit regressive to me

I did find some discussion of this issue on other forums going back about 12 years, but not recently. At that time Red9 had sold over 1000 systems, with no reports of any failures on the road. Presumably Red9 have sold 1000s since then, again with no reports of failures as far as I know. There are two attitudes to this sort of issue, either to incorporate a failsafe design or to over-engineer to minimise the chance of failure. I would be more concerned about flying. A plane will keep flying if an engine fails, but not if a wing falls off. Obviously wings are over-engineered and regularly checked to minimise the risk.

Voyager wrote:

I did find some discussion of this issue on other forums going back about 12 years, but not recently. At that time Red9 had sold over 1000 systems, with no reports of any failures on the road. Presumably Red9 have sold 1000s since then, again with no reports of failures as far as I know. There are two attitudes to this sort of issue, either to incorporate a failsafe design or to over-engineer to minimise the chance of failure. I would be more concerned about flying. A plane will keep flying if an engine fails, but not if a wing falls off. Obviously wings are over-engineered and regularly checked to minimise the risk.

Well Toyota balljoints seem to fail between 100k - 200k and they are massive truck like. Vintage and brazi VW to which this suspension  are often fitted do normally limited mileage being hobby / show vehicles, so to get to point of failure might of course take some time, but MY preference would be to rather avoid chance of failure like that. It would be interesting to find out the company's
risk assessment over this issue.